Foreshadowing Is Not Character Development

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  • Zimmit's FunHouse Adventure

    I think its simple. Was Danearys ever IRRATIONAL?? Overly cruel a few times, yep. Devoid of logic? Never.
    Forget about mass-murder being wrong, well yeah I'd like to think it is. But WHEN did Danearys EVER do anything, right or wrong, that didn't give her a logical benefit and have a RATIONAL basis behind it?? Not once. Burning the city of KL serves NOTHING. It is indeed madness and Dany, whether you like her character or not, has never been without reason. Until you know, the plot needed her to be.

    D&D are just jokes, I'm sorry to say and it's as if they wrote this entire last season coked out of their minds on an expensive drug cocktail.

    • teacup
      teacup  3 days back

      I don't think the seeds of her madness were shown well at all ?? Because all the people she killed, even cruelly, were people who betrayed her, harmed her ( or her loved ones ), or harmed other innocent people. But she never, never, NEVER, harmed or killed people who were innocent. Ever. Which is why her burning King's Landing ( who are afraid of the people in power, and thus are 'slaves' in a way ) with thousands of innocents makes zero sense -- when, if she had burned the Lannisters / their army, THAT would make have perfect sense.

      • Jacob C
        Jacob C  7 days back

        Honestly, I feel it would've been more realistic and "Game of Thrones-esque" if she would've gone mad and just won the throne, but her soft spot/love for Jon allows him and the Stark family to own and rule the North. No one REALLY gets what they truly want (Danny - total dominance of the 5 kingdoms, loving Jon, etc. Jon - loving/being with Danny. Sansa doesn't get to be Queen of the North, etc.) down the line so there is "peace" but no one's REALLY happy.

        • Daniel Williamson
          Daniel Williamson  7 days back

          Jaime not killing Cersei is a total disappointment. By having neither Jaime or Tyrion kill Cersei, Maggy the Frog's prophecy about Cersei's little brother killing her is complete horseshit.

          • Daniel Williamson
            Daniel Williamson  7 days back

            Foreshadowing is not character development, it is a indication (In other word 'prediction') of events that will happen to the characters in the future. Here's a good example: In Series 4 of Doctor Who, River Song meets The Tenth Doctor and Donna Noble. Donna Noble is a redhead. In Series 5, The newly regenerated Eleventh Doctor gains a new companion in the form of Amy Pond (whom has also red hair) and in Series 6, it's revealed River Song is Amy Pond's daughter Melody Pond. Donna Noble meeting River Song foreshadows this. That is foreshadowing.

            • André Vitor
              André Vitor  1 weeks back

              I watch the entire seasons without pay a cent... downloaded all the seasons free piracy... i don't regreat =]

              • Julia Dawnyel
                Julia Dawnyel  1 weeks back

                I agree also that didn't set him out to be a horrible killer not believe able crappie ending dragon took her to be brought back like him better

                • viperblitz11
                  viperblitz11  2 weeks back

                  During the early parts in Qarth, I interpreted her shouting threats more as naive attempts to flex power that she'd only just gotten rather than "mad queen" foreshadowing. It would make sense that someone young and inexperienced in handling "diplomacy" would desperately try to leverage whatever title they had to get what they want, and lashing out when it doesn't work.

                  • stonemaddness
                    stonemaddness  2 weeks back

                    When will writers learn that a rushed story = a bad one, i mean DCEU anyone

                    • Derek the half a bee
                      Derek the half a bee  2 weeks back

                      Daenerys was drawn with a very clear arc. But it wasn't to madness. It was to ruthless and obsessive pursuit of her singular goal, her 'birthright', the iron throne. So burning soldiers as well as the innocents being used as human shields, was in character. Spending the next 45 minutes flying around randomly torching buildings and people after they surrendered, not so much. They jumped the shark by making her insane-cartoon-evil instead of simply ruthless-evil. Nobody paying attention could think she would ever make a good ruler, but the last minute swerve to insanity was forced by writers, not the character.

                      • Dorian Gipson
                        Dorian Gipson  2 weeks back

                        What if bran is the true villain did anyone think about that he knew all this could happen and could have stopped it but didn’t and that smirk at the end lets me know how evil he is especially if you read the books

                        • Lazar Živadinović
                          Lazar Živadinović  2 weeks back

                          This sentence has become a meme. People who first wrote it don't even know what foreshadowing is while people who copy paste it throughout internet don't really think much about what they are typing just going with the flow. Literally all of the stuff enumerated here among so called "foreshadowings" is actually character and plot development. DO you know what foreshadowing is? Foreshadowing in literature is a strange cloud in the sky, a vision, a weird dream or a sentence, an anagram etc. For example when Dany in the novels sees head of a wolf on Robb's body in House of the Undying, that's foreshadowing. Daenerys thinking about stuff, talking with her advisors about choices and then doing stuff that have consequences is plot and character development.

                          People complain about GoT being too obvious yet when for once it is subtle some want the show to bang them over the head with exposition dialogue and telegraph inner thoughts and emotions (this is one of the things where books have it easier than the show). I realized large part of GoT fandom has no sense of empathy with the characters they claim they "knew and loved for years" when so many people couldn't figure out Jaime was, for example ,obviously lying in anger to Brienne when he said he didn't care about the people just like when boy says to his dog "Go away! I hate you" while crying in children's movie.

                          • arielartista
                            arielartista  2 weeks back

                            It’s a hard sell because throughout the show, the underlying personality trait is that she has always been just. It’s a change in her underlying personality and core values. Yes, she wants to rule as queen, but she has always avenged the deaths of the innocent as well. For her to kill the civilians of Kings Landing on her own volition, seems so different from her personality that we can’t help but view it as a reflection on the writing. Her actions take us out of the story and forces us to view the writing. Killing the innocent is so far from her character trope. It would have been more believable if she had sacrifice the innocent in efforts to save more innocent or save the other main characters. Hell, even if she killed to save Jon it would have been slightly more believable than her suddenly turning crazy and killing innocent for nothing more than selfish motivation. Because even if she has been depicted as ruthless, selfishness is a character trait that has never once been displayed by her until then.

                            • Cait Fox
                              Cait Fox  2 weeks back

                              Thank you!

                              • ColtonRainwater
                                ColtonRainwater  2 weeks back

                                I agree. It's not a matter of that she went mad, just how they went about it.

                                • Jay Bird
                                  Jay Bird  3 weeks back

                                  In other words, Benioff and Weiss don't have the ability to write a children's story! After they surpassed GRRM's book version, that's when the show's writing quality went to the crapper!

                                  • MMO Addict
                                    MMO Addict  3 weeks back

                                    In my opinion, what needs to be understood is what the foreshadowing really was.  The moments of a noble, heroic, merciful, and wise queen FAR outnumbered the few sprinkled-in scenes of what could be considered brutal or evil. The simple reason for these scenes was not foreshadowing of the planned end of the character, but to give the writers that option. The talentless Dumb and Dumber duo knew from the beginning that George RR Martin had not finished the books and thus the end of Daenerys was going to be up to them. Of course, these morons had no long-term idea of what they were going to do (and I believe there is overwhelming evidence of this throughout the series) so they sprinkled in some "questionably" evil moments so if they decided to go with the "crazy evil" Daenerys they could point back and say" "See, it was foreshadowed all along".  Bullshit. It was hack writing and they gave themselves an easy out for whatever they decided to do.

                                    • Adrienne Holliday
                                      Adrienne Holliday  3 weeks back

                                      Many good character arcs were dropped like stones in a lake, but I agree with the analysis here. It makes no sense and seems unnatural and illogical. There is no catalyst for her insanity but genetics. Not even gonna get started on Jon and Jamie.....perhaps another video?

                                      • David
                                        David  3 weeks back

                                        I still laugh at people saying there were signs and that she acted mad before that. As if you wouldn’t burn or crucify or do anything else to your enemies. Let’s be honest.

                                        • CandidlyOpinionated
                                          CandidlyOpinionated  3 weeks back

                                          Am I the only one that thought Daenerys would actually come to Westeros and actually be a good ruler? Sure, it would take time for the North and especially Kings Landing to come around, but she’d stay true to her values, and people would see her for who she is, good, and fair, and strong. One who seeks to protect the innocent and bring as much equality as possible. Tyrion says to her “the world you want to build, doesn’t get built all at once. Probably not in a single lifetime.” And he’s right of course. Look at how long it took for slavery to end in America or any other progression towards equality amongst race, gender, and class. Lifetimes.

                                          But for her to lose all morality and every thing about her that inspired us and the people around her, is just a crime to her character. One of many the writers committed to the entirety of the show. She’s not her father, she’s proved that time and time again, she’s more lenient than any ruler we’ve seen up until the last couple episodes of Season 8. People held her to standards non existent to any other king or queen. Reprimanding her for killing the Tarlys, though they refused to follow her and any ruler would have done the same. The same goes for Varys, open treason, any ruler would have done the same. Though that may not even have had to happen if these standards were not imposed. Even Ned Stark, considered a fair and good ruler, beheaded a guy for less than Treason back in Season 1, the man of the Night’s Watch that deserted after seeing the White Walkers. Daenerys could have been the best of them.

                                          The night king could have been the true evil, causing long spread tragedy and death, on a devastating scale, forcing all of the seven kingdoms to unite. Once defeated, Cersei would be dealt with, maybe rather quickly, Daenerys having proven herself by helping save everyone, and Westeros tired of Cersei’s cruel reign that doesn’t benefit any of them. Maybe Arya’s arc would end with crossing that final name off her list. Either way, we saw Daenerys rise from absolutely nothing, go through horrors, and rally people to her cause by inspiring freedom and justice. (Okay, the dragons helped a bit.) But still, everyone who followed her believed in her just as much as she did. I refuse to believe it was all for nothing.

                                          • Dion7
                                            Dion7  3 weeks back

                                            The problem for me is that I never cared about any of the characters. Character deaths should be impactful, but people are dying left and right and I just find myself not caring about any of it. I'm a latecomer to the series, but I've found it very disappointing. I kept hoping Deanerys' character would go somewhere, but every season only showed her to be a pretty terrible person. Even Voldemort had the decency to kill people first before feeding them to his snake. The show is good at hyping up the next season, but it never delivers.

                                            • Jdjdjdjcndkskx Cjcjdjdjcjf

                                              While I agree with you, I also think Danaerys was always overglorified during the build-up and never truly liked her. She was always entitled and she always put her ambition before her family, causing the death of Drogo and then of her child. She was hungry for power and it was always clear that her justifications (of her inherently knowing what’s good) were pretty thin. I’m not saying it is entirely her fault (she did have a mad brother and she did try to have a good relationship with him and he f-ing threatened to murder her and her baby) but still, claiming the Iron Throne? All those who coveted the throne or power for itself died (Varys, Littlefinger, Cersei, Margaery, Robert, Stannis, ..........). She was no different.

                                              I think the show is telling us that people with good values (family, loyalty) ultimately win. Individuals may die, but the family prospers. Danaerys’ downfall was always her ridicolous claim to the throne (as a big theme in the show is also that merit should matter more than blood, so claiming to rule the world or even a country because your parents did really makes no sense).

                                              • Torgo1969
                                                Torgo1969  3 weeks back

                                                Dany fought the Battle of Winterfell so she feels like she has earned the right to indulge her selfishness by destroying Kings Landing. This is nothing unusual. How many people publicly claim to care about distant strangers and the less fortunate and the stuff and the thing, then somehow manage to be completely insufferable to those near to them? It's not a bug, it's a feature of some people.

                                                • Torgo1969
                                                  Torgo1969  3 weeks back

                                                  Maybe Dany was just very good at putting on an act and wearing the mask of sanity. I'm sure I'm not the only one to have been lied to and deceived for many years by multiple people that I thought I knew well. This happens all the time.

                                                  14:04 As for "showing the ability to think things through", I would disagree. There is the famous scene in Season 7 in which she angrily asks Tyrion "So I am supposed to take my enemy's side?" and Tyrion has to rationally explain a fundamental aspect of human interaction, "You need to take your enemy’s side if you’re going to see things the way they do. And you need to see things the way they do if you’re going to anticipate their actions, respond effectively, and beat them." Seems to me that it was Tyrion (in this scene) and Jorah (at the gates of Qarth) that had to talk sense to Dany and keep her from going bugfuck and violently out of control. I have always detected an overwhelming sense of entitlement in Dany, which is why I never liked her, especially when contrasted with the lowborn Jon Snow.

                                                  • Frelus
                                                    Frelus  3 weeks back

                                                    I'll be honest, I disagree with your "The slavers (etc) could have been punished in other ways."
                                                    She was basically a slave to her brother growing up, and built her empire and her reputation as the "Breaker of Chains". Slavery is horrible - any one of the slavers, "good" or not, was an enabler of an absolutely dehumanizing, life-ruining system.


                                                    The crucifixion was brutal, yes - but the slavers' lives were brutal as well, and Daenerys had ample personal reason to dislike these people from her own past, so I would not call this a symbol of any form of madness or excessive punishment, but a retaliation by a victim of the same system.

                                                    • Matt Johnson
                                                      Matt Johnson  4 weeks back

                                                      Also about executing people... it seems people think dragonfire is just some particularly horrible and evil and cruel way of executing people. Well, looking at all the methods of execution we saw in the show, I'd rank them (in terms of how quickly the executed would die and thus not be in pain as such.

                                                      1. beheading
                                                      2. dragon fire
                                                      3. hanging
                                                      4. crucifixion

                                                      • Matt Johnson
                                                        Matt Johnson  4 weeks back

                                                        The seeds were planted... but season 7 kinda had them dug up and thrown away. I think Daenerys really mellowed and showed a lot of self-awareness in season 7. She HAD to, and had to be a good person so Jon would fall in love with her. She couldn't be an irrational, impulsive tyrant or that story line wouldn't work. IMHO, they did that bit of season 7 pretty well. That made it even less believable that she would go bad so quick, and due to some pretty weakly contrived plot events. The story seemed like at the start of season 8, it was written from the end forward, and it was just... really bad.


                                                        I'm not sure that even GOOD writers could have made such a huge change in a character so quickly. Over a couple full seasons, probably. So like the video creator, I'm not saying she could never go that way, I'm saying that in such a short time, it was probably impossible to do so convincingly, and that the writers chose some very poor ways to get there.

                                                        • Saumitra Athlekar
                                                          Saumitra Athlekar  4 weeks back

                                                          To me, her going mad is actually stupid on its own. Her becoming a danger to the people because of how she chooses to rule (e.g. with fear) would make a better end to her arc, and that is certainly Not called 'going mad'. Something like.... she wins and starts ruling.. becomes a good queen, sets new better rules, aboloshies terrible ones.. but then a faction of the society revolts against her, and she burns every single one of them alive, in an instant. And then declares that any person who speaks out against her will meet the same fate. And maybe more events like that... and then she needs to go, and they show that they try other ways but none work, so Jon kills her... longer, but makes more sense, imo.

                                                          • Saumitra Athlekar
                                                            Saumitra Athlekar  4 weeks back

                                                            Also, like, what genetics? There has been exactly one mad Targaryen in the show, and he was actually 'mad', as in clinically insane towards the end of his life, unlike Dany who's supposed to be 'mad with rage' basically. The other Targaryens... some might be ruthless, some were cruel (like her brother), but none of those traits are genetic. In the books, there are like maybe two other that did cruel things, but they too were not actually 'mad'. Only Dany's father was insiane; he heard voices telling him to do things, and all that standard crap.

                                                            • Luke Bernstein
                                                              Luke Bernstein  4 weeks back

                                                              The only people who didn't know Ned Stark would be killed off in season 1 don't know anything about the books. And yeah he's killed off in the first book.

                                                              • Popistan Iuliu
                                                                Popistan Iuliu  4 weeks back

                                                                People still seem to miss this. She burned the city AFTER she'd won ! AFTER.

                                                                • Amelia C.
                                                                  Amelia C.  4 weeks back

                                                                  Let it be known: what happens to Daenerys in Qarth in the show is completely made up and in no way resembles what actually happened in the book. She never gives big speeches about “taking what’s her’s with fire and blood,” and she never locks Xaro Xhoan Daxos and Doreah up in a vault. And her dragons are never stolen from her.
                                                                  Doreah dies in the Red Waste and Xaro is allegedly gay and only wants to Daenerys for her dragons. However instead Daenerys is kicked out of Qarth because Drogon set fire to the House of the Undying when the warlocks try to consume her.

                                                                  • Holly Patricia
                                                                    Holly Patricia  1 months back

                                                                    What they did to Dany was so infuriating I don't even want to re watch the shot b/c I know how shitty it's gunna end.

                                                                    • rachelg492
                                                                      rachelg492  1 months back

                                                                      The thing is they could have fixed it by having Dany fly straight toward the castle and only burning that. Not much else that followed would have changed and it would have made a lot more sense for her character.

                                                                      • Tu Pimp A Caterpillar
                                                                        Tu Pimp A Caterpillar  1 months back

                                                                        Dany has always been brutal. Re- watch and pay attention. In GoT foreshadowing is character development

                                                                        • Matthew Housham
                                                                          Matthew Housham  1 months back

                                                                          It kind of IS in line with Martin's way of storytelling (not necessarily misanthropic, but cynical) that the character who CAN and WANTS to do the most good, through her best intentions (or despite them) end up doing the MOST harm.

                                                                          • Donovan
                                                                            Donovan  1 months back

                                                                            *Corporate Social Engineering* has been successful, convincing some "Fans/Customers" that Season 8 was a logically written story and those who disagree are idiots. Mind controlled *Sheep* , convinced they are free thinking *Wolves* , by design to protect corporate interest.

                                                                            • Kinga Brooks
                                                                              Kinga Brooks  1 months back

                                                                              there should be a battle between her and Cersei in which Cersei would prove to be the real mad queen. Cersei didn't make any development towards being better, but in the film her death was more compassionable than Danny's. That's unfair. Danny should come out clean showing that the years of her progress wasn't in vain, but she would have to do it by tragically selflessly sacrifying her life in order to prove it.

                                                                              • Christian Cinnabars
                                                                                Christian Cinnabars  1 months back

                                                                                Foreshadowing: “[Character] will do _ in the future.”
                                                                                Character development: “[Character] *won’t* do _ in the future.”

                                                                                • Anna Josefin Palm
                                                                                  Anna Josefin Palm  1 months back

                                                                                  When you went though all the contradictions from the writers, my head started spinning.

                                                                                  • Niharika Mohapatra
                                                                                    Niharika Mohapatra  1 months back

                                                                                    Why is she constantly equated with Hitler? Hitler, for all his crimes, never dropped a weapon of mass destruction on a city. It was the nation of freedom, USA that did that. Twice.

                                                                                    • oight
                                                                                      oight  1 months back

                                                                                      really good video, one thing though is that i disagree that someone burning people alive "everywhere she goes" sounds like a monster. i feel we don't put these standards on the other characters of GoT, who have usually done worse. she killed slave masters, it shows that she had a moral compass but she was also logical. if she didn't kill them then it would have allowed the chance of an uprising. there is a western viewpoint that killing makes someone just as bad as the enemy, which isn't true at all. i would argue that not killing the slavemasters would make you a monster, or at least someone who doesn't really have empathy for their victims. sansa feeding her abuser to the dogs is even more gruesome, but it was justified. it doesn't imply that they're going to turn mad, people forget these are characters in an extreme environment where we can't put our morals onto as it causes people to do extreme things to survive. i think this is a great video though, and you made a lot of great points.

                                                                                      • jacaerys Targaryen
                                                                                        jacaerys Targaryen  1 months back

                                                                                        Yes, I agree with everything in the video. The way they made dany go crazy was lazy writing that really made no sense and the mad queen theory was ludacris that wasn’t mad that was pissed and grieving. And people are quick to forget Arya took out an entire family bloodline with wine 🍷 I wonder if bran will reveal that secret and let’s not forget all of Sansa Backstabbing’s she did to Jon. And yes Tyrion gave dany bad advice intentionally to protect Cersei so all in all dany was surrounded by liars who really didn’t have her support whatsoever. I think if they didn’t have time to show her gonmad they should have changed the ending fitting to her show character cause that was just pure 🐉 💩 and not just dany’s character but they all was 💩

                                                                                        • Matthew Cooper
                                                                                          Matthew Cooper  1 months back

                                                                                          It wasn't foreshadowing. You were all just tricked into seeing her as the hero when she's been a villain the entire time.

                                                                                          • The Tamdoms Show
                                                                                            The Tamdoms Show  1 months back

                                                                                            I absolutely love Book Dany and she would be great as a Mad Queen and I will cheer her on. But Show Dany is absolutely bollocks as a character.

                                                                                            • The Real Viper
                                                                                              The Real Viper  1 months back

                                                                                              Walter White took 2 1/2-3 seasons to go from pushover chemistry teacher to ruthless drug kingpin Heisenberg. Daenerys goes from the happiest, most lovable, and most hopeful version of herself in the first two episodes of season 8 and goes full psycho 3 episodes later.

                                                                                              • Tine Verstraelen
                                                                                                Tine Verstraelen  1 months back

                                                                                                Supercurious about your views on Theon and Jaime!

                                                                                                • Arkhèss Ananta
                                                                                                  Arkhèss Ananta  1 months back

                                                                                                  No question that season 8 was rushed. It should have been 2 seasons of 10 episodes. First dealing with white walkers, second with cersei.


                                                                                                  Regarding Dany... Rushed aswell, of course. But I kinda disagree with the analysis that "if she listen to her advisor it's the wrong choice and if she doesn't it's also the wrong choice. What does that tell to the audience ?"
                                                                                                  In my opinion, she's very much like her brother, from the beginning. But where her brother was stupid and impatient, she's more patient and manipulative.

                                                                                                  Basically, when, in the show, you can see her being well influenced by some people (Tyrion, for example) into doing something seen as "good", she's basically working on gaining trust towards her people. Because aside from her dragons, that's all she has.
                                                                                                  She learnt how dothraki were, and then manipulate them into thinking she's so powerful (basically by tricking them into a cheesy death trap).
                                                                                                  She learnt how slaves were, and freed them, fully knowing that with that she'd gain their eternal trust as a savior.... Turning them into cooperative slaves that see themselves as "we follow her on our own will", but just look at what she does when she gives someone the option "follow me or burn". That's no choice.


                                                                                                  She's just a bitch, and everyone who did not saw that just fell in her trap.


                                                                                                  Given that analysis... The ends (still way too rushed) makes more sense, and is more satisfying. Because the "nice girl who want to do good" who got replaced by the mad-queen really never existed to begin with.